Spanish Pundit (II)

febrero 29, 2008

“Rajoy tiene un discurso tan venenoso como el gas de los nazis”

Una nota sobre esta “amable” frase que se ha pronunciado en el programa de Gemma Nierga en la Cadena Ser. Entre otras cosas, en el mismo, el mismo sujeto fotógrafo llamó a Rajoy “el Milosevic español”. Bueno, a Rajoy no, a su “discurso”. Consuelo Rumí, Secretaria de Estado de Inmigración, mientras, ha dicho que “Rajoy intenta imitar a Sarkozy pero se acerca más a Le Pen”.

¿Por qué todos estos ataques? Por el famoso contrato para los inmigrantes mediante el que se quiere que cumplan la ley en su totalidad y porque ha dicho que será “implacable y contundente” contra la violencia de género y la inmigración ilegal. A ello se ha unido la contundencia en el debate del otro día. Curiosamente el plan de Rajoy es más coincidente con otros países europeos que el del PSOE. Y es curioso que se insulte de esta forma a alguien por querer que se cumpla la Ley.

La medida, que ha sido criticada, precisamente por considerarse que es algo inservible (la gente debe cumplir la Ley, sin necesidad de firmar ningún contrato adicional) puede ser criticada también por hacerse en víspera electoral. Esto mismo podía haberlo dicho hace tiempo, porque el problema no es nuevo. Todo ello es cierto y sería necesario insistir en ello. Ahora bien, el hecho es que Rajoy ha sido valiente al plantearlo y eso es algo que es de agradecer. El otro día en un periódico gratuito que cogí en el Metro titulaba la noticia “Los inmigrantes no quieren el contrato de Rajoy, los vecinos sí” y dentro decía:

“La declaración ha indignado a la comunidad musulmana, claramente perjudicada en detrimento de la latinoamericana. Mohammed El Afifi, portavoz del Centro Cultural Islámico de Madrid, considera “indignante y absurdo” el contrato de Rajoy: “¿Qué es eso del contrato? Que nos digan qué costumbres tenemos que respetar. Lo que hay que respetar es la Ley, que es el marco en el que nos movemos todos. El primer punto del visado es aprender español. El primer necesitado en hablar el idioma es el inmigrante. ¿Cómo va a conseguir un empleo o a relacionarse si no es hablando español?
Uso del velo en la escuela, poligamia y mutilación genital son hábitos que se asocian categóricamente a la población árabe. Rajoy insiste en la necesidad de prohibir la ablación del clítoris, olvidando que esa práctica ya se castiga en el Código Penal. “La mutilación genital es delito en España y también en mi país Egipto”.

Ya, pero también está penado en Gran Bretaña y el Instituto Nacional de Salud calcula que son más de 66.000 niñas las que han sido sometidas allí a la ablación. Y en Egipto está prohibido pero se sigue practicando porque es una costumbre. Así que no vengais con milongas de tres al cuarto que no cuelan…
Los vecinos sin embargo son de otra opinión:

San Cristóbal de los Ángeles [es] el barrio de Madrid en el que vive más inmigración, un 42%. Y en el que algunos de los españoles dicen estar contenidos: “Falta muy poco para que estalle y cuando estalle, no sabemos cómo va a acabar”, refunfuña Lola, dueña de un bar de la parte menos “ocupada” -dice- por los inmigrantes. Lola acepta todas y cada una de las propuestas que se hagan de “que ellos se adapten a nosotros y no a la inversa. Ha llegado un punto en el que parece que estamos de prestado. No pedimos tanto, únicamente que respeten”.El hijo de Lola, Ismael, intenta quitar hierro a las palabras de su madre”. “No somos racistas. Los racistas son ellos. Ellos sí quieren imponer. Yo sólo pido que no me degüellen el cordero en medio de la calle, que no quiero verlo, o que no sean cerdos y no ensucien como si nada. […] Aquí hay una especie de ghetto donde mejor ni entrar. Se mezclan todo tipo de nacionalidades y dicen que conviven pero es la guerra”.

¿Es racista pedir que se cumpla la Ley con independencia de la raza del julay que la incumple? ¿Es xenófobo exigir que se controle al que entra y al que sale por nuestras fronteras? ¿Implica querer un genocidio el exigir el cumplimiento íntegro de la Ley tanto para el español como para el extranjero?

No, eso no es racista, ni xenófobo ni implica ser partidario de un genocidio. Eso es simplemente lo que implica el Estado de Derecho (artículo 1.1 de la Constitución) y el principio de universalidad de la ley que lleva consigo, que fundamenta además la igualdad de los españoles y la situación de los extranjeros de acuerdo con lo que determine la legislación española e internacional al respecto. Así que no me sean demagogos y prolijos y como dirían los sudamericanos, güevones.

Por cierto, ¿por qué siempre que se habla de inmigración lo primero que se dice es “no soy racista”? Que el culo y las témporas tienen poco que ver. Da igual de dónde sea el inmigrante que no cumple la Ley y cuál sea su raza, el color del pelo, qué música le gusta o el número de pie que use. Da igual si se corta las uñas cada dos días o cada semana, si lleva gafas, tiene una prótesis en la cadera o es zurdo o diestro o ambidextro. Da igual si le gusta comer pasta o boquerones en vinagre, arroz basmati brajma y dormir en una cama de pinchos o le gustan las camas de agua. Da igual si le gusta el Windows Vista, escribir en un cuaderno del todo a 100 o mandar mensajes de humo.

Lo que sería de agradecer es que se diferenciara sólo entre los que cumplen la Ley y los que no lo hacen. Lo demás son milongas y pretextos al viernes para no ayunar. Se confirma pues, el pánico en la izquierda española por la medida propuesta, a pesar de las carencias que de hecho tiene.

Por supuesto, ante la posibilidad de que Rajoy gane el 9-M, el ex-presidente González le ha llamado imbécil. Agnetem y Elentir comentan estas otras “declaraciones”.

Mientras, el PSOE va a difundir su mensaje por el messenger de MSN. Hice bien en no instalar nada parecido en el MacBook. Pfrrrrrrrrrtttttttt…

*****
Mariano Rajoy announced some days ago that, if he won 2008 elections here in Spain, he is going to oblige immigrants to sign a contract to fulfill Spanish laws and customs. The critics were huge in its momment. But today he has being accused in a leftist radio, Cadena Ser, from the same holding as world-known moonbat newspaper El Pais, of being the “Spanish Milosevic” and of “making statements as venomous as the Nazis’ gas”. As I said the other day, toughness has not being one of his characteristics… but he is considered a Nazi for asking to fulfill the law.

The measure has been critisized (reasonably indeed) because the Law should be fulfilled without any kind of other measures. But I believe it was needed that someone speaks out on immigration fully and without any fear of critics. Of course, he has not done that, but seeing the critics that his measure has arisen, I’m totally sure this is a good beginning. Now, they should continue by this path and not be distracted off it…

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5 comentarios »

  1. To be honest, I’m spanish although not leaving in Spain at the moment , but I very well know what the spanish political-media relationship consists of.So it seems to me rather impartial (if you really want to INFORM and not just make use politically of a piece of news, which seems to be a typical spanish traditional costume whenever politics in on stage) the way your opinion is stated. First of all, when informing about insults from the PSOE and them being commented on the CADENA SER, you should also contrast those with the insults (which I must say it´s the combat mechanism of the PP) and their not specially “impartial” comments on the COPE(the catholic radio which supports everything the PP has to say). Otherwise you are just doing what you are complaining about, lack of transparency, and implementing a partial view which is what has lead us to this bipartidist panorama where you are either with PP or PSOE and you just repeat whatever the supporting media has to say about them…Sorry about this, Im not trying to be rude, Im just trying to be realistic and make something useful for the spanish political scene instead of increasing the non-sense dynamic that leads people to view only one side or the other of the same coin. On the other hand, I disagree completely with your opinion about Rajoy’s contract for foreigners entering our country. Regarding your statement about the article 1.1. of our Constitution in order to support this contract, I must say you have no idea of aour law system , its meanings, and you are just making the same impartial and political use I was commenting before. I graduated in Law, and this article what actually means , is that all citizens or individuals witin the spanish territory must respect and fulfil the law system frame which defines our social-democratic state, based on the values of freedom, equal rights,justice and political pluralism. So actually asking foreigners to sign this “contract” will not only mean regarding them as “unequal” (you didn´t have to sign it) but it will also be contradictory while weaking legal system. ABLATION IS ALREADY PUNISHED IN OUR LAW SYSTEM, and that is to be respected by you, me and whoever enters this country, there is not need to make people commit to this again, the problem is not letting them know it is forbidden (beleive me, they know) but controlling these practises more intensively, which does not depend on a signature: that contract is already signed de facto by everyone. I must also say legal measures are being more effective towards this topic,although there is still much more to do, and muslim women have also made increasing use of our legal system to denounce this to the authorities.
    Regarding the ETA discussion, I will prefer to make no comments now, I feel is a very important problem to just comment superficially abput it. I would only like to say that sometimes I have the impression that some people actually don´t give a shit about Spain and the ETA problem and they just want to use it as a political and partidist instrument, not actually wanted to ETA being finally destroyed but rather to be able to say it was them that finsihed with ETA. We would all make ourselves and our country a favour if we really cooperate for this terrorist to be defeated. negotiations, hideen and private meetings with the group, concessions with prisoners…ALL POLITICAL PARTIES TAHT HAVE CONQUERED THE GOVERNMENT HAVE DONE THIS, it makes me puke and see what lyers and hypocrits we have for politician leaders when I hear them critizicing this methods. I am not saying it’s the right thing to do , I am just saying that they have all tried this way to solve the problem, and it seems to me some of them either just have a total lack of memory, or have a total lack of honesty and values. and what is more scary is that tehir fans actually seem to lack og t¡memory as well…WHERE ARE WE GOING ? That is all I will say to conclude.

    Comentario por worldsceptic — marzo 3, 2008 @ 12:28 am | Responder

  2. a) so you’re saying that just because some speakers at COPE (that really I am not very fond of Federico Jiménez Losantos) do it, the CADENA SER can do it also. Hmm, excellent reasoning… and really idiotic and stupid, without any intention of being rude, really.

    But you know, CADENA SER is insulting the opposition while COPE is insulting the Government, that is, the ones who have the real power here. Even if I do not like insults, I really believe that we can aim them better to the people who are in power, than to those who are in the opposition. If PP reaches the Government, I will criticise them as hardly as I have donde PSOE, and with the same standards, believe me. Something which I would have liked to see on the other side of the blogosphere. Even the digital canon is being defended by leftists bloggers…

    b) Heheh, I don’t have idea of our law system, you say? Hehehe, I graduated in law too. I have been consulting lawyer for some years now. And yes, I know what you say, but it would actually made the foreign people know exactly what they are obliged to. In my experience, I know that there are a lot of them who are not willing to fulfill some laws (the ablation is one case) and if the sign it, I believe they would be much personally obliged to it. They have had to read it and to actually sign it afterwards. There are some of them (specially foreigners with no idea of Spanish language who are really unable to know what is the law in Spain). And believe me: a lot of them -specially Muslim- tend to consider this is not something they are obliged to as they are not personally bound to it.

    But yeah, I can see your reasoning, in fact I have said myself something similar: when I was citing the article 1.1 of the Constitution I was not referring myself to the contract BUT to the obligation to fulfill the law. As you can see, I said “the universality of the law”, not of this contract. I’m sorry if it wasn’t clear enough, though.

    c) Regarding ETA: My family has suffered ETA terrorism, so you’re not going to tell me AT ALL that I don’t give a shit about its terrorism. I am personally offended by this Government because they have negotiated before being even a Government and later they have DENIED being negotiating at all. I want to be told the truth about something which is so important for me. The rest of the political parties said two things: a) we’re negotiating and b) no political concessions for terrorists. This Government has not said the truth at ANY moment about a) and has neither promissed b), and they have not even forbid any negotiation with terrorists, specially in a climate of real violence as the Basque Country has been suffering since Zapatero began playing “I-want-the-Nobel-prize-for-the-peace-process”.

    He has even considered himself the same because his grandfather was killed by Franco as Irene Villa’s mother. And he even didn’t know his grandfather… But of course, he is the same as someone who has lack of mobility and grave damages and whose daughter lost both legs when she was 13 by ETA terrorism!!! A lot of historic memory for some things, a total lack for others…

    Oh, and if you’re going to tell me about Aznar’s calling ETA “MLNV”, I would tell you the same I have said in letter a): if Aznar did something terribly wrong, Zapatero is not obliged to do it too… What is more: he is obliged to change the perspective and learn from experience…

    I don’t want anything but justice be done on the victims, their dignity being respected and their memory being actually remembered because they paid a high price for the freedom of all.

    Where are we going? I would like to know that also, but I am not the least confident… I don’t trust any party (if you would have read for some time this blog you would know I normally do not support neither party…) but specially I don’t trust Zapatero: he has lied even to people in his own party (Maragall, Balbás, Bono, etc). So why believe in him? I can’t find one reason at all to believe in him and a lot to distrust…

    Comentario por Nora — marzo 3, 2008 @ 12:59 am | Responder

  3. a) No, I never said just because COPE is doing it Cadena SER can do it also. I only said in order to give International readers (which may not be so informed of how our political-MSM bonding relations operates) a wider perspective, it could have been pointed out that this is the “regular procedure to inform” in our country.
    Whether you see my reasoning as “idiotic and stupid although not trying to be rude”, you are definitely free to have your own opinion, and your own definition and meaning of the word rudness. Me, in my freedom, I think arguments are of better use than insults, you don´t seem to share my idea..but that will not make me answer you back with the same instruments.

    “Even the digital canon is being defended by leftists bloggers…” Yes, this just supports my statement of the fact that we only have two political options , and in most cases, fans just follow their leaders without doubt or reflexion..(I actually said it scared me)

    b)I’m glad you are a lawyer. I just thpought that your interpretation of that article was wrong -and obviously did not come from someone with a little knowledge of law-. But , as you explained it better and you were not referring to the contract I can only say we then share the same opinion here. Sorry for correcting you.
    However, I must say that I still see this contract useless. Even if a lot of inmigrants/foreigners don´t actually know the rules (which is their obligation) the “unknowledgement of our law system doesn´t lead to unpunishment” (I´m sure you know that as well). That is, if these practises are found, whether the author knows the law of not, is irrelevant here, he should be punished eitherways. So, then again, I only see implementation of measures and control as effective tools.
    c) I am really sorry you have suffered ETA terrorism in your own family, really.
    When I said “some people don´t give a shit” I was referring to politicians (read it through again) and I really come to this though again and again.
    I am not very fond of ZP´s dealing with the ETA problem, but I do think he has tried it the same way all of the previous governments have tried to fight it and have not achieved their goal , because that would mean ETA would not be existing nowadays. Probably, things could have been explained clearer, yes, but I can not think of any previous government(PP or PSOE) that has explained to the general public every step they were taking within the Eta fighting. I see two logical reasons: 1) never before, had the opposition been so confrontating about this matter or using it as a strong attack instrument. (just imagine if , more information had been given), and furthermore, they have always supported the government on this . and when I say support, I mean, cooperating and dealing this topic in a more private and respectful way, even though they could disagree in the methodology-and, I repeat it again, negotiations and concessions with prisioners are nothing new. I cannot stand the PP waving it as the “big sin committed against democracy”, they also used those procedures with the same intention, I want to beleive, of defeating them.
    2) as you know, not all political problems are public. I mean, yes , Eta is a public problem in the way it affects us all. But there are some topics that cannot be dealt with the society at the same time-because of security problems and because of the simple fact that the simple citizen would not understand how things work at the executive level and it would only create controversy, irritation, and get in the way of any possible process. That is exactly why we vote for someone to represent us at the top, we are depositing our trust in that person, because we beleive that person to be able to cope with national problems that we, as normal individuals, can not imagine of how to cope with.
    Those are just some of the reasons I can think of now, and I respect you for not depositing your trust in ZP. Me, personally I won´t give my vote to him, but I won´t give my trust to Rajoy either, I don´t think a party that has played so low with this topic can deserve my trust.

    Finally, and Im leaving it here for today because its 5 o´clock here. I deeply and honestly agree with you with the need of the victims being remembered and dignified, and justice being made towards them. But I don´t think anyone in our country is actually against the victims. Here is where the main “public problem” lays on , no-one is against the victims and everyone should be against terrorism. maybe, with this simple understanding we could all become stronger in the fight.

    Comentario por worldsceptic — marzo 3, 2008 @ 4:28 am | Responder

  4. a) Well, I actually did not say I liked the insults. I rather prefer people to actually give reasons for their lack of agreement. That is precisely why I just gave up listening to FJL.
    What I said is that, if you need to insult, I prefer them to be aimed at the Government than to the opposition.
    And yes, I am fed up of people who are like sheeps. Although I have to add that normally right-wingers tend to be much more independent from a party than leftists. But of course, as any generalization, is just that: a generalization.
    And no, not only the “fans of the two great parties” are like that… I have read some “independentists” and others’ blogs and really they are even worse…😦

    b) About the contract: If you read what I wrote in Spanish, I said that there were two things I did not like this. First, the law must be fulfilled in its integrity (just because it’s the Law) and secondly, this was said very near the elections… so it can have a “electoral smell” I do not like. BUT it has the great importance of a) detecting a real problem (foreigners tend NOT to fulfill the law) and b) even if it’s not a correct one, it presents a solution.
    And this is made by PP, that is one of the two great parties, not by some kind of xenophobe, racist, etc. party. Believe me: it’s necessary that this was said, even if the solution lacks of real sense. Great Britain has a REAL huge problem with the un-fulfillment of the law, but at least there are voices who are denouncing it. Here it’s really impossible because no one wants to be considered as an extremist by just telling the truth.
    So yes, I know what article 6.1 Civil Code says (the ignorance of the law…) BUT I repeat: this way they would knew exactly what they have to fulfill. After the unfulfillment (after the ablation for example) there is no real solution for the girl. Even if they pay her money, the consequences for her, both physical and psycological are so grave, that any money given to her or even the imprisonment of the culprit, is not at all a solution. The bad has already been done. Don’t know if you understand me: I think this is a preventive measure more than a repressive one.

    c) Well, Socialists’ leaders ARE against the victims. I really disagree with you in this point. The victims have been the real opposition to the negotiation’s process, and Zapatero has even called Otegi (who was condemned by several very great crimes, including kidnapping for ETA) and De Juana Chaos (25 dead, several others severely injured), “men of peace“. Really, that’s a FRONTAL attack on the victims, people who have been killed, maimed, menaced, etc. by those same “men of peace“, who have not even ask for forgiveness or shown any type of repentance.
    At least, Aznar, after calling ETA MLNV, changed and pushed forward legislation which was really effective in stopping ETA. If Zapatero has not introduced the possibility of not fulfilling that legislation (and believe me: you cannot fulfill the law only if the political situation is favorable to that, the Law must be fulfilled without exception). We have seen De Juana having intimate intercourses with his girlfriend, while he was at hospital, something that is FORBIDDEN for all imprisoned types. Family can visit them but that’s all. No sexual intercourse is allowed… except for a bloody terrorist with (I repeat) no repentance of his crimes and who, if ordered, would again go back to kill. No, man this Government has not respected the victims: Zapatero even named that bastard (I’m sorry: this is not an insult, it’s a descripción) of Gregorio Peces-Barba in an intent to kill the victims’ association.
    So no: I am personally offended by this Government. They go around with huge security measures because they don’t want to be killed but then they are mocking about the victims and trying them not to be heard.
    Secondly, I am not for that type of “representative” democracy in which such things as this (which could affect, not only to the victims but to the whole country if political negotiation comes to an end), are kept away from the citizens. I’m not saying that ALL things made by the Government in ALL security measures should be told to the citizens. I’m saying (as I told you yesterday) that the Government should at least NOT offer political gains to terrorist organizations and that it should be bound by its own words. The legislative resolution on the negotiation with ETA said clearly, that the negotiation should ONLY go on “in absence of violence”. It is clearly that the Basque Country is now in a much more violent situation as the ETA supporters consider they can do what they want. So, no, I don’t agree with you neither in this point.
    I personally distrust ALL politicians. And think that the citizens should really begin to worry about what they do in our name.
    And lastly, the PP has been the only party who has (I don’t mind the reasons but it is a political party so it’s legitimate to use the terrorism to win votes, as any other political issue) supported the victims throughout the term. They have gone to the demonstrations, they have supported Alcaraz and they have tried to know what was going on. Yes they have committed errors, some of them I had written here. But it’s not clearly the same (at least for me) a party who gives moral legitimation to terrorists by converting themselves in legal partners in a political negotiation and not wanting anyone to know till everything is done, than a party who is trying to denounce that.
    I respect too your disrespect for both parties but I can’t consider them as equal. I really can’t.

    Comentario por Nora — marzo 3, 2008 @ 11:23 am | Responder

  5. ¡¡Que cinismo¡¡ Durante años, se nos ha estado bombardeando a los ciudadanos de a pié, con el mensaje de que eran necesarios 500.000 inmigrantes al año, para que España siguiera desarrollándose, Lo que nadie nos decía, era que ese desarrollo, basado en la especulación y el ladrillo, solo beneficiaba a una minoría, de especuladores inmobiliarios, banqueros, políticos…Mano de obra inmigrante, barata poco formada, nada reivindicativa y perfecta para “usar y tirar”, cuando el ciclo económico se agotase. Una vez cumplido el fin único y verdadero de este “milagroso desarrollo económico”.Enriquecimiento rápido vía “pelotazo” de toda la trama inmobiliaria y adlateres . Pero la sociedad lo que realmente necesitaba era, que ese desarrollo desaforado vivido en los último 5 años basado en la construcción, se hubiese extendido en el tiempo a lo largo de 15 años,en vez de concentrarlo en tan corto espacio de tiempo, mientras que ese capital y esos recursis invertidos en la construcción se hubiesen empleado en modernizar los puestos de trabajo y los sistemas de producción , invirtiendo en investigación y creando empleo de calidad e industrias competitivas, basadas en Investigación y Desarrollo, y no perdiendo lastimosamente el tren de Europa. Evidentemente que la burbuja inmobiliaria, tarde o temprano se agotaría y acabaría por desplomarse en España, era un parámetro que era controlado por estos inversores sin escrúpulos. Por eso todos ellos se apresuraron a invertir sus beneficios en los países de origen de la inmigración comprando terrenos y proyectando futuros desarrollos urbanísticos, para que cuando los inmigrantes vuelvan a sus países con sus ahorros, vuelvan a caer en sus redes especulativas, casas caras para todos en, Ecuador, Rumanía, Marruecos, Santo Domingo…. La jugada perfecta, repetición del pelotazo.
    Mientras el Gobierno de turno, “se frota las manos” y se limita a “hacer Caja” engrosando la cuenta de la Seguridad Social, con las aportaciones grandes en número aunque no de elevada cuantía individual, de la inmigración, coyuntural estacional y limitada a la industria de la construcción, servicios y agricultura casi con exclusiva procedencia.De ahí vienen las regularizaciones masivas y los procesos de reagrupamiento familiar, puro interés económico,si tienes a la familia en España no envías divisas fuera y continuas incentivando el consumo con las nuevas necesidades de los ciudadanos foráneos. Al mismo tiempo abaratas costos en la producción e incides de forma directa en una bajada en los salarios de esos sectores industriales favoreciendo con ello un ficticio desarrollo industrial, aunque en realidad lo que se esta evitando es que industrias y sectores obsoletos por su falta de inversión desaparezcan de forma natural dejando espacio a industrias competitivas que mantendrían los mismos estándares de calidad de Europa. Y mientras tanto todo ese beneficio coyuntural que debería devolverse en Calidad de Vida para el ciudadano en lo cotidiano, mejor sanidad, mejor educación, lo que llamaríamos servicios dotacionales, asistimos sorprendidos a la realidad de que aunque somos 5 millones más en el censo, los medios han retrocedido , la Sanidad Pública es un desastre, la Enseñanza se ha derrumbado y lo único que hemos sacado a cambio de todo éste tinglado, es que Nuestro Estado del Bienestar ha sufrido un notable deterioro.
    Ahora vienen los ajustes, la crisis y el paro, y lo que antes era necesario e imprescindible para el desarrollo de la nación, la inmigración, ahora es su lastre, y desde las Instituciones se aprestan a poner remedio, Retorno Voluntario, Ley de Extranjería,…Las campañas publicitarias van a eso encaminadas, se acabo éste ciclo productivo éste tipo de mano de obra ya no es necesaria, no nos vales, vuelvete.
    El Capital Transnaccional muestra sus verdadero rostro, no importa que seas un trabajador nacional o foráneo, no importa el país, sólo es crucial conseguir un apreciable rendimiento económico. Desde sus paradisiacas urbanizaciones de lujo allá en lo alto nos observan a cual diminutas hormigas fáciles de manipular y de eliminar, solo estamos para llenar de grano sus graneros.

    Comentario por dito — marzo 16, 2009 @ 3:56 pm | Responder


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